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November 09, 2005

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Comments

Peter

Bill collectors will have a tough time after collapse. I can just see it now. Bill collector shows up at stockade gates and demands to speak to Mr. John Smith about his o/s Visa balance. Moments later a dozen rifles, shotguns, and handguns are pointed at him.

Bill collector beats a hasty retreat.

What are your feelings about local currencies? I think they are a god idea.

Also, can you explain what Solari does? Its website is not very clear.

Different Clue

Once you have no credit card debt (and I
have none), there is another reason to use
credit cards as little as possible. It goes
like this: every time you use a credit card,
the place you used it has to send some money
back to the credit card company. Usually
about 2 or 3% of the price you paid. This
is called a merchant fee, and is the kickback
which the merchant has to pay just to be
connected to the credit card network. So
every time you pay with cash-not-credit, the
merchant gets to keep that 2-3%, and the
credit card company is denied that 2-3%.
Since I live in a safe city, I carry cash
and pay in cash for whatever is feasible to
do so. It means nothing to Big Card Credit
if I am the only person taking this approach.
But if 50 million other people paid in
cash-not-credit for most daily/weekly purchases, Big Card Credit would be weakened
by strangulation of its Merchant Fee Kickback
receipts. Quite apart from the issue of
paying down the entire balance in full when
you do have to use a credit card.
I believe if you go more than 2 or so
months without using the card at all, you
get charged an "inactivity fee". So I use
the card one time per month, just to keep it
excercised.

baloghblog

doing the same thing on our end with the debt. Discipline is definitely what you need, as well as a partner who is on the same page as you. Our credit card debt is 2 months behind schedule to be paid off, but will be paid off in 2 months! Then we move to my wife's car, and then the student loans. It does feel good to be paying down that debt, and very liberating.

best quote from your post:
...commit to the plan, send that first payment in anyway, and go out and rent The Shawshank Redemption once again. And try to remember that at least you have a plan.

nuliengvgv

..."Instead I've been filling my head with practical information"

i just wrote about this phenomenon yesterday- the shift from if we'll peak discussions to when we'll peak discussions and now a new shift. this time to discussions about what to do as a response both personally and as individual communities. i think you'll find the following three sources useful for personal preparation if you aren't already aware of them.

http://www.beyondpeak.com/

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/PostOilBulletin/IssueNumberTwo.html
(i'm sure steve is familiar with this)

http://pathtofreedom.com


sickandtiredofthefascistsincharge

We've joined the revolution!

For us it made sense to pay extra on our biggest loan first. By putting all our extra payments towards our largest (and highest interest) debt, our house, both our cars, and kid's college tuition will all be paid off about the same time. Looking forward to being debt free before the end of 2008. :)

I have found this calculator to be a useful tool for calculating pay-off dates when making extra payments. It says mortgage calculator but it works for any simple interest loan.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/mortgage-calculator.asp

Avi Solomon

The revolution has already happened and it's called Voluntary Simplicity. See:
http://www.simpleliving.net/

Nathan

Steve, it sounds like you listen to Suze Orman (I am a fan of hers). I started this process 6 years ago. It went like this:

Starting 6 years ago, my wife and I cut up every credit card we had an stuffed the pieces into a little baby food jar as a reminder. We still have the jar. Then we paid off all of the balances and closed the accounts over the following year and a half.

A little over three years ago we started to look for raw land. We had never heard of about Peak Oil but it just felt right. We found six acres of land that was far from any other houses but still close to jobs. We cashed out of our house in the suburbs which had gained $100,000 in value since we had purchased it 6 years earlier and used the proceeds to purchase the land. Then we built a very small home out of pocket. Now that we have become "Peak Oil Aware", we feel fortunate to have made these choices. Our house is not dependant on any outside utilities.

The only remaining debt that I have is a car payment. I have also saved up some cash so if I wanted to pay of the car, it would be more or less a trip to the bank. However, I have been reserving this money for purchases of things that could be significantly more expensive if the economy goes south.

I highly suggest people follow Steve's advice on getting out of debt. It is really hard to tell what the future holds so I would not count on your debts being erased. We could see labor prisons for those who cannot pay...

Aaron

We went debt free today!!!!!!!!

I kid you not. 5 years ago as we were preparing to get married I had this hellish vision of myself in 20 years time still paying off a mortgage, being a grumpy Dad and worst of all STILL being in the ranks of the living-dead who work in an office everyday.

I'd just read that "Rich Dad Poor Dad" book. It's full of holes from any perspective other than pure capatalist but it does make the point well that if you stay on a wage you're going to be making profits for other people and stuck in the rat-trap for life.

So given that I was in the building industry we went and developed some property and here we are today debt free.

The interesting thing is that as soon as you disconnect yourself from the system your mind seems to become open to new ideas. This has happened to the point that there is no way that I could do the same type of mainstream eco-unfriendly development again.

The next thing we do will be an eco-village with permaculture design, earth houses and most importantly a sense of community.

Nice timing for this posting Steven

Wanda

Count me in the revolution! I actually got introduced to a "debt reduction" plan by Quicken. Technology is good for something. Its become over the last few years total debt elimination for me. I'm almost there.

Peter

Getting out of debt is one good first step. I've done this and am now interested in going a step further. By this I mean extricating myself from the game as much as possible. We dwell in an economy where the game is rigged against the little guy. The more I read up on the Federal Reserve, the more I agree with those who claim that it's nothing more than a mechanism for separating us from our money. Moreover, Bush and his rapacious cronies seem hellbent on plundering both the treasury and the taxpayer.

Hopefully, we can have a discussion on how to go further. To get the ball rolling, I'd like to hear if anyone here has had any experience with so-called "local currencies". I keeps hearing about the LETS system and am curious about it and other similar systems. I read somewhere that after collapse communities will creae their own local currencies which will be pegged to the primary local energy source.

So, any comments, experiences, or questions?

Peter

Here's a quick intro to the local currency concept: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/ip/government/fedelect/nat/abolit/abolsolution

eric blair

Big Card Credit would be weakened

After getting jerked about by one card company, I sent 'em an overpayment of $10. Every month, I go into wal-mart and charge a $0.50 candy bar.

Wal-mart loses.
The card comapny has to send me an invoice.

lmcmillin

Eric

That is really funny. I love it!

Peter

Anyone have any thoughts then on going beyond just the elimination of debt? (see above post)

Aaron

Peter

You're right LETS are a good thing to introduce, I also think it's going to be important to teach people how to feed themselves again with systems like Permaculture - it's the ultimate way to drop out of the system.

Farmers markets where local farmers sell their produce to local people rather than trucking it across the country is another useful idea - in fact we'll probably have to go back to markets for buying and selling food anyway so it's be good to start setting up the systems now.

Solari.com has some very interesting ideas on getting people to invest in their local communities. For example; rather than people putting their retirement savongs into some big corporation they put it into a local organisation which then uses that money to lend to younger people starting businesses. I don't know much about the details but I love the idea of cutting out the corporate middleman. The older generation will get better rates for their savings and the younger people will get lower lending rates because they won't be feeding the beast. Plus when the system crashes the retirement savings won't go with it. I presume if it is based on something other than the dollar it will be immune to hyperinflation too.

We need to develop heirloom seebanks and anything else that involves growing food without oil based fertilisers.

Thats all I can think of right now. What's interesting is that all of the means of detaching a community from the system also happen to be really good for building community. I'm sure that's no coincidence


Peter

Thanks. I have had a life long fascination with CED (Community Economic Development) and its offshoots such as alt currencies.

I am now brushing up on my knowledge. Last week I ordered "The Future of Money: Creating New Wealth, Work and a Wiser World"
Bernard Lietaer from amazon.uk

Steven Lagavulin

Peter,

IMO, I don't think "local currencies" are something to put your energy into right now. Maybe after we've re-instituted actual working local economies, but it's putting the cart before the horse to try to establish them beforehand. As long as they don't involve debt/loans/usury in any way, they'll invent themselves....

How to go beyond just the elimination of debt? I strongly believe the second step is to stop buying from corporations. That's a huge task as it is. Maybe you've already explored this a fair amount, but I find it extremely difficult. It's tough to get lunch on the fly, and it's impossible to buy a new DVD player. I try to practice this ideal as much as I can, but it's still so difficult to do.

A third step is to not work for a corporation. For those that don't already, that's obviously not a big deal, but for those that do it's almost impossible to get out of the "safety net" mindframe that says we'll die without our benefits packages and 401(k)'s.... Only true independent businesspeople really understand the "institutionalized" mindframe of people who've worked for a corporation too long.

One last thought....a group called Adbusters has a more pro-active approach toward spreading the revolution. I support what they're doing, but in truth I find a lot of their ideas to be a bit immature.

Just some thoughts....

Peter

Steven,

Do you see anything ominous in this decision by the Federal Reserve?

Discontinuance of M3
On March 23, 2006, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System will cease publication of the M3 monetary aggregate. The Board will also cease publishing the following components: large-denomination time deposits, repurchase agreements (RPs), and Eurodollars. The Board will continue to publish institutional money market mutual funds as a memorandum item in this release.

Measures of large-denomination time deposits will continue to be published by the Board in the Flow of Funds Accounts (Z.1 release) on a quarterly basis and in the H.8 release on a weekly basis (for commercial banks).


http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/discm3.htm

Isn't M3 a leading indicator of how much new money (instant debt) is printed each day?

Does this mean that the Fed Reserve expects inflation ahead. Bad inflation which it wants to cover up by no longer publishing this indicator.

Steven Lagavulin

Here's the shorthand definition of the Money Supply measures:

"...measures of the money supply: M1 includes currency and checking accounts; M2 includes M1 plus savings deposits, CDs, and money market funds; M3 includes M2 plus large-denomination savings deposits and institutional money-market mutual funds."

So what the (not really)Fed no longer feels they want to report are cash balances held by large investors and institutions (importantly, M3 also includes deposits held by non-banking institutions).

So it's a crucial measure of money supply. It's sort of like if the NYSE stopped reporting "block trading". You'd have no idea that institutions comprise anywhere from 60% - 80% of the market action on any day in recent months (that the "market" therefore is almost entirely institutional traders). I won't speculate what the Fed's real plans are, but on a basic level they seem to want to hide institutional money-supply levels -- which increase when large financial firms and banks sell securities (bonds, stocks, etc.) and sit in cash, or receive large-denomination deposits from somewhere....

the mad doctor

It used to be debtors were sent to prison. Then they figured out sending them as "indentured servants" to the new world. This was less than voluntary and essentially rental rather than owner slavery and hence treated like a rent-a-car. Now it is a voluntary addiction, again exploited by the dealers like crack. But with a much bigger pool of addicts. The dealers advertise on TV and hang around schoolyards (college campuses). This is a much bigger money-maker and entirely voluntary. Besides, it is much easier to make money off of debt than actually making something.

So we fill our lives with useless crap to feed our endless consumer hunger. It is never satisfied. If only I had more money... It is never enough. Marriages are strained. The stress of month-to-month living. Our living spaces are full of useless items. Check out that extra room in the house, basement or your garage. We foul the earth with the creation and transporting this crap too.

Credit cars are obvious. Do you really need to make payments on a TV or vacation? Pay cash for a year-old car that is decent rather than some status symbol with years of debt payment. Even real estate is over-rated. Bloated valuations, predatory lending, preposterous expectations,...

Outside of a true emergency, there are only three reasons to borrow money: Your own home, your own business and education. I would think long and hard about those too before acting.

Peter

Steven,

Perhaps you have already answered this elsewhere. If so, just point me to the post.

Here's the question: where do you see us being in 10, 20, and 50 years? By this I mean at what level of civilization.

James Kunstler envisions what I call The Little House on the Prairie Scenario with the survivors living an 1850s life-style of self-sufficency.

The gang of anthroplogists/tribalists at Anthropik believes that in 20 years we will find ourselves in the Quest for Fire Scenario where the few remaining survivors have reverted back to life as nomadic Stone Age hunter gatherers.

Personally, I see something else. An anachronistic blend of low power technology (e.g., preserving the Net) coupled with the Little House on the Prairie life-style of self sufficiency through permaculture.

Yes, there will be a die-off and government will become pretty irrelevant over time--especially the feds as they will have nothing to offer.

What are your thoughts?

Steven Lagavulin

Peter,

I don't even try to speculate out that far. I don't think we can really know where we'll be...although I do believe life will be something radically different from what we live today. And I strongly suspect that your opinion is a good one: that we will undergo a return to a more self-reliant, simple way of life, but one which integrates a whole variety of "modern" materials, products, techniques, and knowledge. We'll revert to the mean, but we'll do it by going forward....

Also, as a helpful tool for my own thinking, a little more than a year ago I sketched out an outline of what I felt the next few years would hold...in "Timeline for the Unfolding Crisis" which is linked at the right under Notable Articles. Those "predictions" have held up well, but that had a different focus than what you're speaking about.

Jim

I suppose it's easy for me to go debt-free, as I only have ONE NAGGING DEBT that I have to pay off. 36 hours and I'll be there, just gotta get paid, and I'm home free.

But that system sounds real good. Keep on rocking in the free world, man.

Carly

I really like what you have to say and I hope that you are still spreading information because I think it is important.
Regarding what life will be like in 20 years, I doubt that things will be HUGELY different. There will be some technological breakthroughs that will continue to polarize us as a nation...drug use will continue to rise as new concoctions that are easy and cheap to make dumb down those who wish to pacify themselves in that way...who knows what will happen with cars...probably a mixed bag...as much as things have changed a great deal since the 70's, 80's...it's also a lot the same.
I don't think that we will be living in MadMax/Brazil/Waterworld/L.I.Wilder communities for another hundred years or so.
What interests me the most will be to see what happens to us - the middle class teetering on the edge of poverty just to pay off all of the b.s. fees/taxes/insurance etc..that you need to dole out, just to be "legal". I am trying to pay off debt, but also pay out what I "owe" each year.
I have many dreams about what I would like to be able to do in my life with my family...I'd love to take my baby son abroad and show him Rome, or Egypt...but how on earth is that going to happen, unless I borrow or win the lottery? Save save save is the only answer, but it's tough!! Do we really need a $600 PS3? no, but it's tempting because it's fun...I guess that's my drug of choice.
Sidenote: It would be really interesting to see how people would react if EVERYONE knew that we should not really having be paying taxes to the IRS, we are SO being fleeced...it sucks that by signing a W2, we are signing a deal with the devil.
Please keep posting...here's to a peaceful revolution!

Wanda

I posted last year on this topic. Should have posted my update 3 months ago. Independence Day came in June 2, 2006 by paying of my last debt, the mortgage.

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